When was the last time you saw James Nicoll and Nick Mamatas together?

[snarp]

Food for thought!

Today Nicoll made a post asking:

In another discussion I don't to derail more than I have, someone laments the general lack of old ladies as protagonists. Aside from the woman in Remnant Population and Esme Weatherwax, who should be mentioned?

The thread's up to 81 comments so far, and at least half the books offered up have been either edge cases - "she starts out as twenty, but she's nearly fifty by the end!" "she's one of the most important of the six POV characters!" - or flat-out BS. You guys, for purposes of this conversation, ageless mystical tree spirits DO NOT COUNT.

Several people have posted about characters who are like, forty. So, what, college is middle-aged now? (Do people ever call forty-year-old guys "old men?")

Comments

[chomiji]

LOL ... believe me, at 52, this subject is near to my heart.

I have a feeling that for a lot of the respondents, there's "young" (= worthy target of sexual advances) and there's "old" (= anything else).

I have this problem when I think of icons to make. Where are all the manga ladies "of a certain age"?

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Well, there's the occasional beyond-badass martial crone in some shonen series (Yu Yu Hakusho and Inuyasha spring to mind, and Sister Yolanda is arguably a seinen version of the same "Never Mess With Granny" trope) -- but more middle-aged women who get to have characterization beyond "protagonist's mother", I suspect are most likely to be found in unlicensed josei. :/

[royalarchivist]

(Do people ever call forty-year-old guys "old men?")

I'll let you know in four years. XD

But seriously, this probably just goes back to the belief by high-school kids that 30 is old. I realize many of the posters to that thread are probably at least in college, so they have to adjust their target a little bit (cuz "omg I'm gonna be 30 in like 10 years, it's not so old now!"). I think being "old" is a moving target that some people never quite seem to reach, like the end of the rainbow where all the gold is. At just shy of 36 I look at my 60-year-old parents and think they don't seem so old. 70, though... ;)

[cerusee]

I'm guessing Sophie Hatter doesn't count.

[holyschist]

Unf, tough question.

I'd count Lady Cecelia as a protagonist in some of the Serrano books, but on the other hand, while her brain is elderly and formidable, her body is rejuved to middle age (against her will, granted).

Dang, though. That is a tough question.

Although, while forty-year-old men probably don't get called "old", I can't think of a lot of books with genuinely old (whatever that means--if I go by "senior citizen" definitions in the U.S., 62?) men as protagonists, either. Adventure is, apparently, for the young or occasionally middle-aged.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure she wasn't rejuved until the last book of that original trilogy, though? So for two-thirds of her screen time, she is undeniably elderly, looks it, and looks it in a society and class where refusing rejuv treatment and wearing her age so openly makes her a visible anomaly to boot.

(I'd go look it up to be sure, but after the recent OH E_MOON NO YOU DID NOT JUST GO THERE fail, I kind of want to forget that I own the Serrano omnibus right now.)

[holyschist]

Gosh, I can't remember if it was the second or the third. But yeah (and yeah).

[dhara]

I honestly can't think of anyone who writes awesome old ladies, particularly as protagonists, besides Terry Pratchett (who admittedly does a fantastic job, but should not be so damn alone in that). Seriously, where are all the classic novels with gnarly old ladies reflecting on their lives and their youthful adventures and their journey to where they are now or whatever?

Also, no, dudes in their forties will never be old men, omg. Unless they are halfheartedly rejecting the advances of the lovely young ingenue - "I'm too old for you!" "I don't care!" - in which case they don't really mean it. I am so utterly fed up with May-December romances, btw, and have no interest in seeing any more of them until I see some more older ladies getting it on without being branded as cougars, or weird, or anything like that. (I am bitching because I am currently marathoning my way through Dexter, and they just put one of my favorite ladies into a May-December pairing that is annoying me fiercely.)